PREMIERE EPISODE: ANGIE THOMAS

A few things that you just mentioned here is like, not only are you opening the eyes of privilege to people who may not be aware that they have had it, but also just getting people to read and getting them to understand both sides. How did that hit you? I mean, A, first of all, it's your first book. Let's start with that first, okay? And it's a bestseller. How did it hit you to kind of get such a wide response? Because it didn't stay within one demographic. 

Yeah, you know, I think if nothing else, it showed me the power of storytelling and the power of telling stories from our heart and being our authentic selves, even with our art. Going into this, there were conversations from some people who like just, I don't know how big of an audience this may have. This may only just be something that appeals to the kids who see themselves as Star. And for me, I was like, okay, that's fine. So, but to get out there and to see that it's going into so many different homes, so many different demographics, people with different religious beliefs, political beliefs, all of these things. It's shown me the power of storytelling. I hope too though that it's shown publishing in Hollywood that even when they're coming from a specific place and they're about a specific experience, they can still appeal to a lot of people. It's okay if the majority doesn't see themselves in the story, they can still enjoy it. I mean, the rest of us have been forced to enjoy entertainment that we can see ourselves in. I think white people will be okay if they don't see themselves in it. They'll survive, it's all right. So we need to have more diversity in art. It'll be okay I promise!

That’s awesome!  But here's something I sort of wanted to get back to just set up who star is in your book. 

Yes. Star is a 16 year old girl who lives in a neighborhood called Garden Heights with her mom and her dad and her two brothers. And she's the only girl. She loves basketball. She loves Jordan. She loves the Fresh Prince. She attends a mostly white private high school. And she is the only black girl in her graduating class. And she often finds herself being two different people in two very different worlds, but her struggle to be these two different people becomes harder after she's the sole witness of her childhood best friend Khalil being killed by a cop. Khalil was unarmed and what Starr does or does not say can not only change her community, but it could end her life. 

There's some similarities with your background, obviously, going to two different schools. When you started writing The Hate You Give, what kind of representation did you have in the publishing world?

I remember for me, when I was a kid and I was reading, I could find some books about black girls, but there weren't a whole lot of books about black girls. And then by the time I became a teenager and I should have been reading young adult literature, I wasn't because I didn't see books about people like me.

Two big books when I was a teen were Twilight and the Hunger Games and I don't have anything against either, but I can connect with neither because I was like, my mom wouldn't let me date a 300 year old vampire. What the hell? 

Well, maybe if he looked like really hot, maybe. 

No, Edward would have shown up at my door and she would have been like, you were born when? No, bye. That's not even a short story, much less a novel.

But you know, that's not to say that there weren't black authors out there who were doing amazing work. Like you have Walter Dean Myers, you have Jacqueline Woodson. But my gatekeepers were not introducing me to these books. These weren't the books that were being pushed out there like Twilight and some other things. When I decided to go into young adult literature and children's publishing, the big help for me was the creation of the foundation We Need Diverse Books, the organization.

They started around the same time I started working on the Hate U Give. And the goal was that we need diverse books in children's literature. And so they championed for that and they really put a spotlight on publishing and a spotlight on the lack of diversity in children's publishing. And it's really made a lot of changes. So I ended up getting a grant from them while I was working on the Hate U Give. And that grant allowed me to get a new computer.

So the work that they were doing and the work that they had already put forth was such a huge help for me that I'm not sure I would be in the position I'm in right now if it wasn't for them. 

We just talked about you not having many authors or stories that you could relate to. So when you were working on your first book, which also addressed very complicated themes, I mean, what were some of the challenges that you faced? 

My biggest obstacle was myself. 

Okay. 

I'm lucky to say that. My biggest obstacle was myself. It was my own fear and my own hesitation, but also it was looking at the landscape of children's publishing and not seeing books about black girls in situations like this especially, but books about black girls, period. Yeah. You know, so I was like, there's no way something like this can get published. So I was afraid and my fear actually led me to getting my agent because his agency held a question and answer session on Twitter and I just asked if a topic like that was even appropriate for a young adult novel.

He responded and he was like, yeah, I'd like to read that. And I sent it to him. He loved it and signed me. 

Nice. 

Yeah. That's, that's, you know, Twitter's good for something, I guess. 

I think you've done well by Twitter. 

Yeah. I hope so. But yeah. So it was, it was myself and, and, but also seeing the landscape and seeing the numbers, you know.

the year I was writing the book, a study had just come out saying that there were more books featuring animals and trucks as the main characters than black kids, Asian kids, Latino kids, Native American kids combined. 

That is insane. 

It's funny to me because now we see in Hollywood, especially making an effort to pull more diversity in and you see stuff like a black little mermaid and people are like, no, Ariel can't be black. Okay, so a lobster can talk?!  You know, like, wait, wait, a mermaid can't be black, but seafood can talk. Really? 

That's amazing. But to not go from any writers or even any stories to look to, and you know, The Hate U Give isn't about like unicorns or puppies in the park. I mean, Angie, you were breaking stereotypes on many levels. How did that feel?

And you know, I didn't think of it like that. 

You're talking about not having many African-American writers pushed out in the forefront. So not only did you do that, there weren't many books about African-American issues or race issues. And here you are. It's your first book. You're an African-American writer. You're a young woman and you come up with a book dealing with some really tricky subjects. I mean, that's busting down those gates, Angie. You never thought of it this way?

No, I didn't. I'm okay with that because that would have probably put too much pressure on the book. I will say there are like so many black authors who had they not done what they'd done, I wouldn't have been able to do what I did. And even in children's literature, like if Walter Dean Myers didn't exist, The Hate U Give would have never existed, you know what I mean? And knowing that people had done so many things before me.

and not found doors already, it helped. It gave me the bravery to do that story. I will say, like, when I was writing it, I wasn't worried about, oh, maybe I got too many curse words in the book. I wasn't thinking about, oh, maybe I'm covering too many, you know, heavy subjects. And I still, even now, I try not to carry that with me. I don't wanna put that kind of pressure on my books or on myself. So if it happens, though...Yay, you know, I'm so happy with what The Hate U Give did. And I'm so happy with now, with what On The Come Up is doing. And I'm gonna be so happy with what my third book does. But it's kind of like when you have kids, you just let them go out in the world and if they get in Harvard, yay. But if that kid just becomes a truck driver, yay, at least you're a productive human being.  

You know what, I have a feeling that your kids are all gonna be Ivy Leaguers, just saying. Just saying.

I'm cool with them going to community college. 

Well, here's my question. So when you wrote The Hate U Give we're going to go to On The Come Up in just a second, what was the one thing that was most important for you to convey? And do you feel like that message was received?

 For me, I think the most important thing for me to convey, and it feels like a very basic thing to say, and it's sad that we're even at this point as a country, but I wanted to convey the humanity of black kids.

Tell me more about that. 

They don't get that a lot. If Khalil was a real person, people would have seen him more as a thug than they would have seen him as a child. I wanted to convey the innocence of black kids. I wanted to convey that they are still kids. They are still children. Black girls don't get the benefit of being seen as girls. People assume that they're young women and that they can handle so much more than their white counterparts. That's why they get suspended more. They get in trouble more. People are quicker to call them fast. That's why when black girls go missing, the assumption is that it was something they wanted to do as opposed to people being afraid of what's happening to them. 

It's terrifying that we're still in this situation, actually. 

Yeah. Yeah. So that for me, that was the main thing was to show that black kids are kids and they're human beings, and they deserve to be seen as such. So that was my main hope. That's my hope with all of my books, honestly. 

I think you've probably gotten that message from your fans and your readers. I actually wanted to go back for just a second. I wanted to ask you, when you first went to the more privileged area to go to school, was it tough for you when you first walked in and you were like, did you feel like you were on a different planet? Regardless of color, I mean, at that age, we're all trying to fit in, because we're all in that weird, awkward, insecure stage. We all wanna be liked.

And you know, kids can be pretty brutal, but when you're kind of going from your poor neighborhood into a privileged neighborhood at that age, did you feel like you just went on another planet? Like, what was that like? 

Oh, yeah, for sure. It felt like being on another planet. But I think it was like I said kind of earlier, it was a stark realization. It was an awakening and it made me realize how different the world could be for different people. It was hard too, because I did.

often feel like a fish out of water, like I didn't belong there. I had an experience in college. 

What happened? Yeah. 

We were at one of my professors who held a Christmas party at his house and he had a big tree with a huge pile of Gap gifts underneath and you could randomly pick something and you wouldn't know what it was. It was like whoopee cushions and silly strings, stuff like that. And stuff he wanted to get rid of. So I'm not only black girl there, black person there. And when it's my turn, I randomly picked a gift, opened it. And it turned out to be a prescription drug book and a toy water guy. And the note said inside the drug dealer starter kit. 

Oh, geez.

And of course one of the white girls goes, Oh my God, the black girl from the ghetto that's a starter kit. How funny. 

Oh my God. 

My professor looks so horrified. And some of my classmates, they laughed. Others looked horrified, but I was so angry. Yeah. I didn't say anything. And it was mainly because I was so stunned, embarrassed. Yeah. Didn't really know what to say, but like I thought of all the comebacks. 

I can't believe that. I'm so sorry that that happened. I'm almost embarrassed for them, for the people who are underrepresented. Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, if it's not intended maliciously. I feel a certain responsibility to educate them because it's ignorance. 

I get that. And I've had to recently get to the point where I tell myself I'm not responsible. 

Oh, okay. But there's my question. Then how do we make the situation better? Because the unfortunate thing is with the way the world is going, if we don't, everyone, if we all don't take that responsibility to educate, how can we make this better? 

I think the one...the best way to make it better is to just live our lives and tell our stories and control our narratives more. The reason that girl said that ignorant statement to me is because they haven't been, they haven't seen better. They don't know better. And why is that? Because you have media, you have stereotypes in your media. You have all of these different images of black people and Asian people that have been either so limited or...or they only fit into a certain box that people aren't going beyond those images. So, like I look at racial bias and how narratives that have been put out there feeds into that. I mean, you only have movies that show young black men in a certain light, people are only gonna see young black men in a certain way. And so I think one of the best ways for us to fight it is through our creativeness, as for artists especially, through our art, whether that's through our music or our books or our films, whatever that may be, television, to take control of our narratives and tell the stories that represent us on a wider basis. And even if you're not an artist, I think if there are people in your life who they are ignorant and they need to be taught and you wanna take that on, teach them. I won't have anything against that, but when it comes to like random, people, NO. You know, like random strangers—NO. That's on them, they need to learn.

And they need to take the time to learn. So if nothing else, you just tell them, that's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard in my life. And make them think about that. I don't have to pull you aside and tell you why it's stupid. And for you to think that all black people deserve to have a drug dealer starter kit. There are people in the hood who are hardworking and law abiding citizens. I don't have to pull you aside and tell you that. I can just tell you, you stupid. 

But going back to, you know, taking control of the narratives. I want to go to your second book On The Come Up. Tell me a little bit about the book, what it's about, what inspired you to write it, and what is it that you want to kind of get out as a follow-up to The Hate U Give?

Yeah, On The Come Up also takes place in the same neighborhood as The Hate U Give, but it's not a sequel or a spinoff. It's about a 16-year-old girl named Brianna who wants to be a rapper, like so many kids in neighborhoods like that. And her life has turned upside down when, one, her mom unexpectedly loses her job, and, two, a song she makes goes viral for all the wrong reasons, and she finds herself in the center of a controversy too big for her to control. But as her family situation gets worse, she's desperate to make it, even if it means becoming the very thing everyone's made her out to be. There are bits and pieces that I took from my own life and put in on the come up. Like when I was a teenager, I wanted to be a rapper. 

Yes. 

Yeah. It was something I failed at, but pursued regardless. 

You can pick it up anytime.

But no, no, the main reason I wanted to be a rapper was because it looked like that was the only way that people like me could make it. That's all I saw on television. Rappers, they had the money. They were successful. I didn't see a whole lot of doctors and lawyers from my neighborhood at least who were out there that looked like me. So hip hop seemed like a way out. And for Bree, it does feel like that as well. So I put that in there. And then to...

When I was a teenager when my mom lost her job, it really changed our entire lives and put us in crisis mode. And there are so many kids out there who it feels like every day is a crisis. So I wanted to speak to them as someone who's gone through that. Yeah, you found your voice. Now it's time to make some noise. 

I love it. You're in media. You've been traveling the country. You've been hearing from readers. You've certainly done the media circuit. Do you see representation moving in the right direction? 

I think. We are, but I think there's still so much more to do. There's always that fear of they're going to be like, oh, we appreciate quota. Also even in publishing, I say this a lot about children's publishing especially, but I never want them to think that every book about a black kid or a kid of color has to be a The Hate U Give. They don't have to deal with issues. Let black girls get with the vampires and let her daddy talk to her about that. You know, can we have that?

Can black kids fall in love? You know, can they have their happy, sappy stories just like anybody else? All of these tropes that people want to say they're tired of, minorities haven't even had the chance to use them. So I hope that that's been my fear is that we're reaching a point where they're either like we've met the quota or they only expect a certain kind of narrative from us. So I hope that that...is not the case and that we can continue to push back against that. So yeah, I want Black Twilight. 

All right. 

You know, like I said, I don't know how that'll go over with a Black girl's daddy, but I would love to see them try.

Well, I think you're in a really good position to write that, I'm just saying. You know what, at the end of the day, it doesn't make a difference if you're White, Black, Asian. If you're a human being, you are a hundred million different things.

You have a hundred million different experiences. You have a hundred million different stories. What are you writing on your third book now? Like, what are you working on? 

There's a lot I'm not able to say about it. 

So you're not writing for like a singing lobster?

No, no singing lobster. 

Okay. But my third book is also set in Garden Heights. It's not a sequel to either book, but the main character is someone my readers will know.

Okay. When can we expect that to come out? 

Most likely February, 2021. 

We'll be waiting. 

I'm taking next year off from books. I have some other projects that I'm working on that I'm not able to talk about either, but well, we are working on the on the come up movie. So that should be out hopefully next year. We're, we're still in the early stages, but we're working on that. 

I'm so excited for you. That's going to be amazing. 

Thank you. 

If you had to pick one lesson that helped you through some of the hardest challenges with stereotype, either professionally or personally speaking. What was that one lesson that you hold dear? 

It's one for my mom and it's pretty straightforward and to the point like she is what other people think of you is not your business. 

I like it. 

That goes with stereotypes, that goes with...criticism, all of it. And what other people think of you is not your business. What that means is you take that power from them and you put it in yourself and you define yourself. What you think of you is the most important thing. 

That's awesome. I do love your mom. 

Where can people keep track of you? What are your social media handles? I'm on Twitter way too much at Angie C. Thomas. 

All right. All right. 

I'm on Instagram at Angie Thomas.I have a Facebook page that don't update nearly enough. Angie Thomas author. 

So quite a few ways. Last question, and this is sort of a signature line. I represent, what do you represent? It could be literal, whatever you want to say. Fill in the blank, Angie. 

I'm Angie Thomas, the author of The Hate U Give and On the Come Up. I represent the roses growing in the concrete. Great thanks to my guest, Angie Thomas, for kicking things off.

Thank you to my technical director and musical composer, Nelson Pinero, for his time, care, and talent. To Gracie Kong for her constant love and support. Reppin is a Suburban Outlaw Productions. Until next time, be sure to stand up and represent.